Why the Long Night prequel is a Bad Idea for Game of Thrones (5A/6)

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  • KhaleesiOfTheGreatDairyState

    I think the history of the North would be a cool idea. Because we could see Winterfeel being built and how Starks brought the North together. I know it was through conquering but also maybe through a lot of politics and diplomacy. In the books, the North really wants the Starks back, and you don't get loyalty like that through fear alone. There are familiar family names in the books and the show to get us to care a little bit about the characters. If you go before that, there's the fight between the Children and the First Men. How did the First Men come to adopt the Children's religion?



    There's some of that in Bloodmoon but it seems to be very scatted and all over the place.

    • Will Mosse
      Will Mosse  4 months back

      I agree with pretty much everything you say in this video series, but in this one specifically - though I agree with your content - I don’t particularly see why these factors make the Long Night a bad idea for a prequel. Rehashing elements, lack of characters, lack of story - yes, these make it a bad idea. But seeing an Iron Age Westeros sounds pretty cool to me. Yeah, it would be completely different than a medieval Westeros, with just a few recognisable elements, but to me that sounds kind of sweet.

      • Jessica Gruebner
        Jessica Gruebner  5 months back

        What would be interesting, if the linguists who developed VAlyrian and Dothraki languages based the First Men runes on old Hunnish/Magyar writing instead of the Norse runes. Would look very exotic yet would be one of those “genius bonus” additions

        • The Dragon Demands
          The Dragon Demands   5 months back

          Jessica Gruebner I think the basis they used for what little we saw from House Royce was Futhark

      • OcarinaSapph1r3 -24
        OcarinaSapph1r3 -24  7 months back

        Maybe they'll do '13th Warrior' or 'Vikings'-style with the language, if there's a barrier-issue.

        • Cody Taylor
          Cody Taylor  7 months back

          That's what I thought when he talked about it vikings did it pretty well

      • Dabs
        Dabs  7 months back

        The real sad thing is... that none of this probably matters. This is Star Wars and the Expanded Universe all over again (not saying everything from it was gold, but it did have some interesting storylines). What George/George wrote or approved of doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is what Disney/HBO (or should I say AT&T) thinks that matters; what their perception of what matters to the media and/or fan memes (Cleganebowl) (something that will get alot of attention). Original ideas are bought, adapted, and once the prime material has been exhausted; hook, bait, and switch, congrats here's some shit.

        • Orthochronicity
          Orthochronicity  7 months back

          They will have first men with long swords, not a short sword like the carp's tongue sword. Possibly worse: a long sword-like sword made out of bronze.

          I'd also expect some monstrosity of a society patterned after what we think of vikings, when the actual Norse society had a very rich culture with prominent social roles -- including leadership roles and warriors -- for women. They also had what sounds like at least 3 genders (I'm not clear how accepted the 2nd male gender was, but it seems like they acknowledged it and at least begrudgingly accepted it as a lesser gender expression relative to the ideals they had for men).

          There's no reason to think HBO can understand this level of historical realism. This alone will drive me crazy enough to not watch.

          (and if as on cue while typing this, the theme song comes wafting in from an adjacent apartment... perfect...)

          • MonsterHuntressRoon
            MonsterHuntressRoon  7 months back

            I don't know, in GOT we did get some regional diversity of the Free Folk between the Wildlings and the Thenns. It is possible that the Prequel based n the First People could have characters in the same "kingdom" but have that diversity of customs, with civil truces to not bother each other.

            • Lady Piggy
              Lady Piggy  7 months back

              All I can think of is the horrific implications of Roose Bolton's statement regarding the practice of 'First Night', with regards to the North in the Age of Heroes... I have no desire to watch Rape Central or, rather, an even larger one than we had with Game of Thrones.

              • TheLetterM
                TheLetterM  9 months back

                I gotta be honest, although I share the sentiment that the Long Night might not be the best idea for a successor show to GoT, a lot of these criticisms could just as well be seen as positives. Specifically the concerns regarding how little we know from this time period. Likely that‘s exactly *why* the writers picked the Long Night as the preferred time period, so they don‘t have to conform to Martin‘s writings and face criticism from book fans for changing aspects of his universe. With a time period as vague as the Age of Heroes they could do pretty much whatever they wanted. What could be problematic is the lack of many of the Houses, locations and so on that are known from GoT but then again worst case scenario they could just stick with Brandon the Builder and his relatives for their main characters and make the show about political in-fighting in the North (Starks vs. Boltons for example) and make that the main premise before the WW arrive. Again, I‘m not super pumped for this idea either, the Empire of Ash idea sounds much more fleshed out and interesting to me, but all the uncertainty about the time period is likely desired by the writers (Hell, pre-Doom Valyria is just as nebulous as the Age of Heroes, probably even more so).

                • TheLetterM
                  TheLetterM  9 months back

                  Alright, I‘ll be on the lookout for the next couple of parts ;)

                • The Dragon Demands
                  The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                  @TheLetterM Oh there's no Golden Mean fallacy here, no "both sides have a point" - they don't. Long Night is inherently a "problematic" idea at best. In the final section, I point out "these are THEORETICALLY good points about this setting" - i.e. it's officially the era with the most magic in it. BUT....rather than stressing that, all we've heard from them is "the kingdoms don't exist yet". I only point out a theoretical best case scenario to ...contrast, that what they actually make won't even be as good as that. Well...you'll see, better to watch the next ones and see what I present.

                • TheLetterM
                  TheLetterM  9 months back

                  It‘s good to hear that you‘re making a best case scenario Video as well. It‘s all well and good to be pessimistic and based on there being next to no information on the Long Night prequel as of yet I do share a lot of that pessimism, but we should also not forget all the positive things that could come out of this, so I like that you‘re seemingly striving for a balanced approach at the end. I simply believe we shouldn‘t give up hope for a show that hasn‘t even had the chance to properly take off yet :)

                • The Dragon Demands
                  The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                  The Empire of Ash writers seem nervous about not being based on pre-established characters. Long Night doesn't seem to care, they told us nothing. But Empire of Ash has more "setting" details, while Long Night does not - it's basically "the World of Ice and Fire: The TV show". But....a lot of your post is on point, but I explicitly talk about this in the FINAL section, regarding "A Theoretical Best Case Scenario Long Night prequel versus what HBO might actually make". I mean that's its title on my computer: "Part 6: Theoretical." Please remember this post you made here and re-iterate it after watching the final section when I get to posting it.

              • Badjoke Maker
                Badjoke Maker  9 months back

                Because the makers of Empire of Ashes are doing their homework and deserve a shot so much more.

                • Diego Natan
                  Diego Natan  9 months back

                  I think that the age of heroes would be a fantastic book in the style of World of Ice and Fire. I mean one describing the real peoples and customs of the time, I think that what was published by George hints that the ages before the Andal invasion were covered by a fog not only of time but by the Andal culture. To me it seems that the age of heroes was very different between the many regions, I think that if George was to make a "real" history of the age of heroes he would make the northern kings, not as kings but as high chieftains, meanwhile, the south would be dominated by some city-states and many agricultural kingdoms with the occasional empires rising and falling/splitting.

                  By the way, is it explicit said that the first men had horses, or at least that they did ride them? If not that would explain even better why they were conquered by the Andals, and why the knights were developed as an Andal tradition.

                  Anyway, the only way that I could conceive a show like that would be one where each 3 to 4 episodes would be focused in a specific time and place a little like "Cloud Atlas" but without the constant back and forth between time and place, another option would be a show like Xena where Julius Caesar and King David are contemporaries...

                  • Diego Natan
                    Diego Natan  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands thanks!

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    They had horses, though not quite the heavy armored cavalry of the Andals. They didn't have iron-armored cavalry units. Horses were a factor in the First Men overpowering the Children of the Forest. Well, the problem is that this is how YOU would do an Age of Heroes prequel, best case scenario. That isn't what they'll actually make - I talk about this more in the final section.

                • Cunnysmythe
                  Cunnysmythe  9 months back

                  Splitting these feature-length videos into half-hour portions is a great idea; more accessible and builds anticipation

                  • Cunnysmythe
                    Cunnysmythe  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands definitely a good call I think... People who are happy to sit through 2 and 3 hour YouTube videos will be the exception rather than the rule, I don't expect people to be like me
                    Plus, people know what to expect from your channel; if they don't come back for subsequent videos they were going to tap out before the end anyway

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    I'm openly surprised that I've retained a lot of viewers. So far, part 1 had 2,000 viewers....then part 2 had around 1,200....and part 4 also has around 1,200 viewers. People actually kept watching through the whole thing, it didn't decrease with every subsequent one. This one just got loaded up last night. (shrug) the whole thing is a little over 3 hours long. It DRASTICALLY helps that I even RECORDED them separately, as sub-chapters....then just went "screw it, I'll load them up one at a time". I was also looking forward to keeping the comments section discussion more focused this way.

                • SpirusOfH
                  SpirusOfH  9 months back

                  I'm very curious about that inside information you claimed to receive. Will you mention what it was in the future after the show airs? (Would still like to know even if it turns out not to be true, you're reaction to it seems so crazy, I'd love to know what they could have possibly thought of that would make people so mad)

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    @SpirusOfH We burn them to ashes - and then we burn the ashes. That is our *official* motto.

                  • SpirusOfH
                    SpirusOfH  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands I'm both looking forward to and dreading whatever it is. Like you said, if they screw it up we'll rebuild from the ashes.

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    After it airs, after it's obvious to everyone, I'll probably make a video saying "yeah, this is what I was told. I warned you." But if it never airs...I'll wait until after it's officially rejected to say "these are rumors I heard about this". Either way, only after it gets rejected on its own.

                • psevdhome
                  psevdhome  9 months back

                  I love the level of detail you put into the analysis of what could go potentially wrong in a historical parallel to the bronze age. Your knowledge and passion can be heard in your voice.

                  I am not as knowledgeable in these subjects as you. But for me everything doesn't have to be hyper-realistic, but I'd expect that a main line historical fantasy film should have some thought put into the world-building of the setting. I don't mind mistakes but the type of lazy writing embodied by the writers is bound to be full of baffling stupidity.

                  The books aren't perfect, they have a lot of armor and weapons from different medieval eras appearing simultaneously (like plate armor and greathelms, or longswords and greatswords,) although it could be justified since Martin isn't using technical definitions.

                • Simbai
                  Simbai  9 months back

                  I'd hate to play against you on Crusader Kings 2 lol, great analysis

                • Salamon2
                  Salamon2  9 months back

                  Quite frankly, some of the fandom's love for Targaryens disturbs me. I could care less about them, they're not the aspect of ASOIAF that has me interested in the series. Point blank, I find them the least interesting part of the books, and that so much has been devoted to expanding upon Targaryens outside of the main book series doesn't help woo me over to them.

                  Sorry, just the way you emphasized "House Targaryen" at around 2:59 just bugged me and reminded me that I want to say: not everyone is here for the insane albino-ish dragon riders.

                  • Salamon2
                    Salamon2  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands Ahh! Gotcha.

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    Oh no, I emphasized it because it is OBVIOUS they wouldn't be in it, given that they only showed up in Westeros 300 years ago. I'm reacting to people who just casually assume everything from the current show will still be in a prequel...set 8,000 years ago. The same tone as...."dude, King's Landing wouldn't exist in this!"

                • Bartimaeus of Uruk
                  Bartimaeus of Uruk  9 months back

                  There is an easy solution for the Common Tongue in EoA: just have them speak Irish or Welsh or any other language really. If the Westerosi characters speak Valyrian, have them speak English with an accent.

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    It's more about the prequels so I didn't really NEED to get it out before Season 8.

                    (Spoilers) - my conclusion to the first part of it, asking "Which non-English dub did this the best"...is "the German dub, by far above the rest". Not which one has the best "acting", though, but "which one did the best job of portraying regional accents, as a story detail".

                    And to be blunt...it's because the German dub is literally the ONLY one that even...portrays Dornish people with accents separate from the other characters! Spanish-accented German. Though even the German dub doesn't portray the Starks & Wildlings's northern England accents (which I call a "First Men accent"), due to difficulty of showing internal English accents (standardized German makes regional accents difficult to convey and still be intelligible...versus "Spanish accented German" is obvious enough to still be intelligible). I'm surprised the Italian dub made zero attempt to show regional accents, given that they DO in the "Simpsons" dub.

                  • Bartimaeus of Uruk
                    Bartimaeus of Uruk  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands You mean in Long Night? Yes, probably.

                    Good to hear the accent video is still on the list :)

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    I suspect they'll all have northern English accents like the Starks and wildlings do. Or at least they should, if I was running it. But that gets more into the subtlety of "accent" not "language"....I do plan to do a video on accents eventually, but not enough time before Season 8. I mean, in Empire of Ash, if a Lannister shows up in Valyria to buy a sword....what are they going to do? Have it like that show "Allo Allo" and have them speak in an exaggerated English accent?

                    (shrug) I'd go with the excuse that "any nobleman traveling to Valyria probably learned Valyrian, it's like Classical Latin to them" (i.e. Tyrion, Samwell, other characters do know High Valyrian)

                • Melan Choly
                  Melan Choly  9 months back

                  I'm imagining a successful TLN would have *nothing* "familiar" to asoiaf or Thrones, including land masses — since HBO likes the CGI "big events", the series could end in X yrs with a cataclysm that splits "Essos" and "Westeros" and possibly raises up _hints_ of familiar, "incoming" landmasses for "the history *we do know?* (Eg, maybe the Eyrie is FLAT until the cataclysm; and the Iron Isles are part of the main continent, and the far north could have a nice climate, while Dorne/Starfall could be a big nothing until a meteor hits it and people start migrating there and it becomes an epicenter of commerce (and *not yet separated from the V Freehold!*)

                  Because TNL is a _decline phase_ from some "Age of Heroes." Goldman indeed has a "blank slate" and many fantasy "tools" available for use near series end, but I'd leave out all the odd weather, kingdoms, and possibly hold off on any "introduction of CotF" until TLN's final season. And even that could be on friendly terms (thus tossing the "history we think we know, without damaging "asoiaf").

                  The "First Men" _could be_ Amazon women or whatever (the first actor cast is a woman, after all), and maybe humans were always there (didn't migrate from "Essos", since possibly there was no "Narrow Sea". The drama would be lead actor trying to keep the Age of Heroes peace, but the "decline" being slowly-oncoming "factions" that would lead to the CotF merely *_considering_* making themselves widely known, to _stop_ the natural clans becoming more "warlike" (Especially if the illicit use of CotF magic is what started "divisions"; maybe the CotF had a few people who wanted *out* of the hivemind!)

                  I think series end of "TLN" having no Others (as expected), but "long night" instead being metaphor for the start of power-grabbing clains, with a hint of who will be "Freefolk" cutting themselves off from the now-forming "kingdoms" south of them (and not even any "ice magic" yet so the start of the Wall could be _mud bricks_ like Hadrian's) would be satisfying and not get close to asoiaf times. And for HBO "huge CGI effects, the CotF and Freefolk might have intended to *stop* this clear "decline", and on failure, the final cataclysm is a force that maybe divides the continents violently, "makes" the Rhoyne into a "sea", and Thrones/asoiaf watchers could _start_ to see hints of the suddenly mountainous Eyrie, the Iron Isles, maybe even (though I hope not) the shifting weather patterns.

                  And it wouldn't *touch* asoiaf as _we_ know it: "the long night" wouldn't have recognizable _anything_ yet, and end with the beginning of what COULD be kingdoms as we "know" it, the CotF v "First Men" as lore has it, and nothing overwriting asoiaf at all. It could even encompass (as asoiaf did) pre-history Essos, though hopefully without going too far (having magicians in Asshai, or dragonriders and Andals ...all that should be *later*). A 5-7 year pre-history has plenty of hope _if they stay away from familiar names._

                • HistoryFan476ad
                  HistoryFan476ad  9 months back

                  Don't worry the wreck it all, destroy what little lore there was and shove our modern world politics into it.

                  • HistoryFan476ad
                    HistoryFan476ad  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands I was not on about those common historical problems i was more on about adding our very modern day problems or ideology into it. You get what i mean adding in very left or right modern political ideas. You know references to trump, or stuff of that calibre. Problems like a democracy turning into an empire is classical as the Romans fell to that, it good to base your fiction on that as it was an issue ancient people suffered and even today.


                    I was more on about adding in stuff like if you may beg my pardon SJW like ideas or stuff. Basically adding into to a story set in ancient times problems and ideas which could only really be found or thought off in our modern world.


                    My fear is that the writers might start to add in there own political ideas and turn the show into a mouthpiece for there modern day politics. Immigration, Oligarchy, Citizenship, invasions and the gap between poor and rich is understandable there a common think in history. But imagine watching the show and then out of nowhere they start making references that sound like digs about Trump or whatever. Or go banging on about Ideas that fit only a modern world.


                    The Valyria Prequel sounds like it would work as long as they keep to the fall of democracy feel and resist the urge to put references or ideas that a modern day Republicans or democrats would have.

                  • Badjoke Maker
                    Badjoke Maker  9 months back

                    Like it happened to rome. Some "political problems" are timeless.

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    What about like, prequels based on ancient history that happen to reflect issues from the present? The Valyria prequel wants to deal with a crumbling democratic republic which has turned into an oligarchy, facing immigration and citizenship problems. While that is a risk of being too "on the nose"....the actual Roman Empire DID face those problems.

                • Wisdom Manari'
                  Wisdom Manari'  9 months back

                  The iron islands had iron ore... since the beginning

                  • Wisdom Manari'
                    Wisdom Manari'  9 months back

                    The grey Kings under House Grey Iron

                  • Wisdom Manari'
                    Wisdom Manari'  9 months back

                    @The Dragon Demands I think it's one of those small things that allowed the Iron Islands to be such a threat for so long.

                  • The Dragon Demands
                    The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                    Yeah....that is an anachronism that Westeros.org itself has a whole thing on explaining they're not sure how to reconcile that; GRRM wrote the Iron Islands chapter last for the World book and didn't stop to think how it fit with the rest of it. We are aware of the issue.

                • Salthion Gaming
                  Salthion Gaming  9 months back

                  I didn't even know the show deviated this much from the book until I found ur videos. Wow...
                  Valar Dohaeris

                  • B_A_Z_E_D V.2.0
                    B_A_Z_E_D V.2.0  9 months back

                    Was the tale of the long night a purely northern thing. In the book, it seems that only the north kept the tale though it does not mean that the south were not involved.

                    • The Dragon Demands
                      The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                      Oh no, I talk more about that in the next video; there are legends about it all over Essos as well; from the Rhoynar (living in the region that is now the Free Cities) to Yi Ti in the far east (their version of China).

                    • Julio Acceus
                      Julio Acceus  9 months back

                      I had imagined the whole country (as well as the world) suffered from the long night, but the North took the worst.

                  • KTChamberlain
                    KTChamberlain  9 months back

                    Funny enough Homer does get some things right about the Bronze Age in his work The Iliad, like for example the description of Troy and whatnot, but in some other areas he drew from the Iron Age. For example Homer wrote that Nestor had an iron mace, the funeral practice of cremation was not of the Bronze Age; Homer also described chariots wheels having 8 spokes--in the Bronze Age they had 4 spokes, he also describes the one-on-one duels, but really that was more of an Iron Age practice. I fear these showrunners may pull a Homer, and not in a good way.

                    • KTChamberlain
                      KTChamberlain  9 months back

                      @The Dragon Demands I watched a series of lectures on YouTube about the Trojan War by Dr. Eric H. Cline, author of "1177 BC: The Year Civilization Collapsed", and he mentioned that Homer was half and half in terms of his accuracy to the Bronze Age in The Iliad. The armor and weapons he describes in great detail are accurate to the Mycenaean Greeks, but the diverse city-states like Athens, Sparta, Thebes, etc. did not exist during the Mycenaean era, so he was more anachronistic in that department. So for historians and archaeologists it makes for an interesting challenge of weighing up Homer's accuracies and inaccuracies on a physical scale.

                    • The Dragon Demands
                      The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                      @1Handed Typer Yeah....you mean you they'll somehow still make a good final season?

                    • The Dragon Demands
                      The Dragon Demands   9 months back

                      ....I recall quite a few people being cremated in the Iliad. Archeological evidence doesn't support that? But ser, that's a contradiction in terms: "pull a Homer" implies it will succeed.

                  • Jarin
                    Jarin  9 months back

                    I thought the same, thanks for the video.